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Cat flap for parrots?

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Re: Cat flap for parrots?

Postby sunnyrio » Tue Jan 12, 2021 1:44 pm

Pajarita wrote:It's not that they would drop dead, it's that their average lifespan is greatly shortened - same as would happen with people living in a tent at -10C all their lives.
That simply doesn't happen with people. In fact getting cold is extremely good for you. It's unnatural to be warm all the time. And if an African moves to Russia, they soon get used to it.

Anyway, I was asking about heating. So the parrots are free to use the cosy shed as much as they wish.
sunnyrio
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Re: Cat flap for parrots?

Postby Pajarita » Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:10 pm

Well, it doesn't happen to people who are wearing appropriate clothing but, when we talk about tropical or semi-tropical birds, you are talking about the equivalent of a human wearing a very light cotton jacket. Do you still think it would be healthy for the 'light jacket human' to live in a -10C temperature? You don't actually think that an African moving to Russia will 'get used to it' while wearing nothing but a traditional cotton robe, do you?
Pajarita
Norwegian Blue
 
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Re: Cat flap for parrots?

Postby sunnyrio » Sat Jan 16, 2021 11:56 am

Well, it doesn't happen to people who are wearing appropriate clothing but, when we talk about tropical or semi-tropical birds, you are talking about the equivalent of a human wearing a very light cotton jacket. Do you still think it would be healthy for the 'light jacket human' to live in a -10C temperature? You don't actually think that an African moving to Russia will 'get used to it' while wearing nothing but a traditional cotton robe, do you?


Firstly, a parrot's feathers are adjustable, so it's actually the equivalent of us having a suitcase of interchangeable clothes.

Secondly, a light cotton jacket is more than enough for -10C. You would be fine naked at -10C. You might grumble about it, but in the short term your body would shiver, reduce bloodflow to the skin, and use brown fat cells to produce heat. In the long term (not that long, probably about a month) you would acclimatise by growing more fat under your skin for insulation, and more brown fat cells to generate heat, so numb fingers and shivering would no longer be required.
sunnyrio
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Gender: This parrot forum member is male
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Re: Cat flap for parrots?

Postby Pajarita » Sun Jan 17, 2021 10:53 am

Fine naked at -10C? :shock: You gotta be kidding me - that's 14 F for us, guys - and the OP says that living naked at that temperature is OK and that you would adapt in a month - and you might only you would have lost all your toes and possibly some of your fingers to frostbite. Needless to say, if anybody forced a person to live naked at 14F for a month, they would put the person in jail - same as anybody keeping a tropical bird at cold temperatures could be charged with animal cruelty.

And no, feathers are not 'adjustable'. Temperate and artic species have evolved to 'adapt' to changes in temperatures by growing a winter plumage but tropical and semi-tropical do not (nature did not give them the ability to do this because it is not necessary in their natural habitat). They molt but the new feathers are identical to the old feathers, only new, shiny and whole instead of old and raggedy.

Look, these are your birds and, unfortunately for animals, they are all considered property same as objects so you can keep them at whatever temperature you want and there is nothing we can do from here. The only thing that I can tell you is that, here, we all strive to keep our parrots as healthy and comfortable as we can and part of that is keeping them at a temperature range very close to what they evolved to live under in their natural habitat.
Pajarita
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Re: Cat flap for parrots?

Postby sunnyrio » Mon Jan 18, 2021 1:31 pm

Ah, you're one of those that believes the hype they read instead of trying it. Do the following to learn reality (and I've done it many times): Go camping in winter when it's below freezing. Don't take a tent, don't take a sleeping bag, don't take clothes (you can wear a bikini or shorts or something if you're a prude). Sleep outside in the elements. Guess what will happen? You'll shiver. Your fingers won't be dextrous enough to do crochet. But that is all. It won't kill you and it won't harm you. And you'll feel a lot more energetic afterwards. It accustoms your body to not being a couch potato.

Feathers fluff out, the bird automatically changes the amount of trapped air. It's the equivalent of being able to change your tshirt into a thick sleeping bag and back again instantly whenever you need to. Surely you must have seen wild birds fluffed up in winter?

If you read back through the thread you'll find that I want to keep them warm. I'm discussing a warm indoor area and an outdoor area with the birds' own choice as to which they are in. If I can't make them use a catflap type thing, then it will still be warm, but cost me more to heat.
sunnyrio
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Re: Cat flap for parrots?

Postby Pajarita » Tue Jan 19, 2021 11:00 am

The 'hype'? :lol: Believing that 14 F is cold is no hype - it's a solid fact and not an exaggeration. And, yes, of course that I don't try things like camping in the cold without a tent or a sleeping bag - I am old and old people, if nothing else, learn that doing things to 'try them out' is not the wisest thing one can do.

Yes, birds do have mechanisms to maintain' their internal temperature constant - all endotherms do and the safe internal temperature range is actually very narrow, an average of 5 F. They shiver, they fluff up, they eat more and they move more. But these mechanisms were never meant to remain 'on' for months and months and, if they do, their bodies suffer. For one thing, a fluffed up bird does not fly (feathers need to be slick and tight against the body for this), for another, keeping a higher metabolism by eating more just to keep the body warm enough for homeostasis takes a huge toll on their telomeres (all physical stress does). Birds already have a much higher metabolism than mammals (70% higher) so keeping it at an even higher rate for months means shorter lifespan (as well as compromising basic functions like breeding, digestion, sleep, etc).

And yes, I know that you are trying to keep them warm :thumbsup: I just don't think you are going about it the right way, I think that you are leaving too much up to chance. Please understand that, when it comes to bird care, I go to the extreme. I strive every day of my life to give my birds the closest conditions to their natural habitats, diets, social needs, etc. and part of that is ambient temperature.
Pajarita
Norwegian Blue
 
Gender: This parrot forum member is female
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Re: Cat flap for parrots?

Postby sunnyrio » Wed Jan 20, 2021 2:02 pm

Yes, it's hype. It's amazing what people believe. Most of the population still believe the old wives tale that chilly weather gives you a cold.

Unless you've actually tried it, you're just believing nonsense you've read somewhere. All you have to do is think about the logic for a minute. Think what ways your body has to adjust its temperature. Sweat, blood flow to the skin, brown fat cells, shivering, metabolic rate.

It always makes me laugh when a news article has people astonished that someone survived something. There was a naked baby once left overnight in snow. Its body temperature had dropped to 20C. Every doctor said it should be dead, but it was alive with no ill effects.

If you're too chicken to try it out, try it out slowly. Go stand in a frozen lake for 5 minutes. If you don't get ill, try 10 the next day and so on. Pretty soon you'll have discovered you don't die even after 2 hours in there.

The safe internal temperature is a lot wider than you think. The body doesn't do much to adjust until it's 1C out either way (I think that's 2F in old fashioned readings). I was once in hospital with a broken finger, and a nurse read my temperature as 38C, I said isn't that a bit high it should be 37. She said no, it's warm in here, normal temperature is 36-38. And in fact my sister is 1C higher all the time. Her temperature is normal from 37-39C. The actual numbers are something like: 36-38C normal, 35C you get goosebumps all over, 34C your teeth chatter and maybe a buttock, 33C you shiver hard all over, 32C you start going blue, 31C you are really blue and numb, 20C you die. So don't panic just because you're shivering.

Those mechanisms do not remain on for months, because if it's long term your body adapts by growing more layers of fat.

Flying is extreme exertion, you aren't cold when flying. It's when you're sat still you need the thick feathers.

A higher metabolism doesn't shorten your life. The metabolic rate of humans in fact varies quite a bit. The ones with a higher rate are the ones we envy, they never feel the cold, they never put on weight, they're always full of energy. But they have the same life span.

As far as breeding's concerned, keeping them equally warm all year is probably messing their bodies up. Different temperatures are required so they know what time of year to breed.

I'm allowing them the freedom of choice. They're not cats, they're intelligent animals, they'll go into the indoor area if they want to be warmer. And judging by you, people and birds feel too cold long before they actually are! Actually when I used to own cats, even those would come inside through the catflap when the weather was disagreeable to them.
sunnyrio
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Gender: This parrot forum member is male
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Re: Cat flap for parrots?

Postby Pajarita » Thu Jan 21, 2021 10:55 am

:lol: You are either a young person who, in the arrogance of youth, thinks he/she knows better than anybody else (and, if this is the case, don't worry about it, it's normal, it has to do with the pre-frontal lobe not being fully developed until the mid twenties) or a silly old one who never learned to be humble and respectful of others but, either way, you are funny so I forgive you.

You were not talking about people believing that chilly weather gives you a cold, you said that people can live naked at 14 F and that they will adapt -supposedly without negative consequences- and anybody with half a brain knows this is bunk. A naked person standing outside at that temperature would go into hypothermia in a matter of hours (it can happen at only 40 F) once it got too tired to keep on doing jumping jacks all the time to keep warm. And you are wrong about the core internal temperature range being wider than 5 F, in medicine, lower than 95 F is considered hypothermia and over 100 is considered fever (in Celsius that would be lower than 35 and higher than 38). Not my opinion, what doctors and nurses are taught and considered a medical fact. And, yes, babies can survive cold temperatures better than adults because they are born with brown fat but normal adult people need to expose themselves to 2 hours a day to the cold for a number of days to begin growing brown fat (and why do you think all the experiments done on this use a limited time exposure to the cold?). It doesn't happen overnight and it doesn't happen after you lose consciousness from hypothermia - after that, if you don't get rescued, you die. Homeless people die from the cold all the time here at higher temperatures than 14 F and they are not naked.

As to your suggestion of an experiment, you go right ahead and stand naked on a frozen lake - I will stay home with my birds nice and warm and not because I am chicken but because I am smart and I don't need to experiment on myself to know what the outcome will be.
Pajarita
Norwegian Blue
 
Gender: This parrot forum member is female
Posts: 18701
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Number of Birds Owned: 30
Types of Birds Owned: RoseBreasted too, CAG, DoubleYellowHead Amazon, BlueFront Amazon, YellowNape Amazon, Senegal, African Redbelly, Quaker, Sun Conure, Nanday, BlackCap Caique, WhiteBelly Caique, PeachFace lovebird, budgies,
Flight: Yes

Re: Cat flap for parrots?

Postby sunnyrio » Sun Jan 24, 2021 1:43 pm

I'm 45 and have swum in ice cold water for hours with no ill effects all my life. Unlike you I don't believe anything I hear. Try it for yourself and you will find out. Hypothermia is about as factual as religion. We are agreeing on the body temperature and you didn't notice. I was always told (incorrectly) that a change of 1C in your body temperature either way meant you were ill. But as you've just stated, it's ok to be down or up by 1C. And in fact you've said even 2C down is ok. So why oh why do people get upset when they start shivering? Obviously if you're shivering you must be below the recommended range, or your body wouldn't be trying to correct it. Now think about it, when the heating is on in your house, you don't say your house is too cold, the heating is maintaining that temperature. Same goes for numb toes, shivering, blue skin, etc, they're just your body correcting the temperature. It's a perfectly natural thing to happen and will not harm you. Go and try it out, go in ice cold water and see for yourself what happens over time. If you're worried about harming yourself, try it for a short time first then longer another day. and don't say I should do it because I have, and for fun. Swimming in icy water feels much better than warm water. Shivering feels good too, it's exercise without effort!

You're wrong about the brown fat. That was what they used to think, now they say babies have less as they haven't grown it yet. And adults grow more of it if required. If you regularly get cold, you will grow extra brown fat so you don't need to shiver, and you can withstand even colder temperatures. It works just like weightlifting. The more you push your body, the stronger it will get so it can manage more of what you were asking it to do.

Homeless people are short of food. Have you never noticed that when you're hungry you feel the cold more? You need energy to create heat.
sunnyrio
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Re: Cat flap for parrots?

Postby Pajarita » Mon Jan 25, 2021 10:59 am

Look, I don't mind arguing, I actually love to debate but this is absolutely pointless because we are coming from two different places. Personally, I consider swimming in freezing water an exercise in masochism and if there is one thing I am not is a masochist :lol: I don't mind sacrificing but putting myself through discomfort just for the heck of it? Nope, not me. And I bet that the greatest majority of people feel the same way. Maybe you took years to acclimate your body to it... maybe you are overweight and have a thick covering of brown fat and that allows your body to withstand very low temperatures without discomfort... I don't know. All I know is that swimming in ice cold water is not only not necessary for good health, it's actually dangerous (see this: http://coldwatersafety.org/WhatIsCold.html) - and I do not put myself in danger for no good reason, either... like I said: two different places.
Pajarita
Norwegian Blue
 
Gender: This parrot forum member is female
Posts: 18701
Location: NW Pa
Number of Birds Owned: 30
Types of Birds Owned: RoseBreasted too, CAG, DoubleYellowHead Amazon, BlueFront Amazon, YellowNape Amazon, Senegal, African Redbelly, Quaker, Sun Conure, Nanday, BlackCap Caique, WhiteBelly Caique, PeachFace lovebird, budgies,
Flight: Yes

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