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input asap please

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Re: input asap please

Postby Kakariki » Fri Aug 28, 2015 3:02 am

Do parrots' dream? I know dogs do, even though at one time so called 'experts' said they did not. Anyone who had an inside dog that slept near them new better. What do the so called experts know anyway. On what do they base their ''theories'? The scientists that do not LIVE with their ....grrr I hate when my word recall is faulty.... their... objects of their theoretical theories...they only view them under controlled circumstances and do not get the entire view and make their theories of such a pittance of observation and are applauded because they went to some university cum laud (?) with no real empathy or familiar understanding of a given entity. Just a doctorate and a funding of further benign study, however they come to attain it. How many of them really know the intricacies of the individual entity of any given species. generalizations and stereotypes abound throughout every aspect of life.

Is Skippy dreaming right now? Are they good or bad dreams? regardless, when he/she awakes Skippy will again be inundated with a myriad of unfamiliar, to him, terrifying series of circumstances, which he will not understand.

and in my singing to him the 'cuppy-cake' song, where one of the lines says, ''I will always be there" now I feel I lied. cause I am NOT there with him now, when he is so scared and akone
Kakariki
Conure
 
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Re: input asap please

Postby Wolf » Fri Aug 28, 2015 6:35 am

Being there for him is such that in some case the only way that you can be there for him is to not be there so that he can get the proper medical attention that he needs. By doing this you are actually being there for him in the best way that you can. Being there for him goes far beyond just a physical presence.
I do believe that all living thing dream.
Wolf
Macaw
 
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2Celestial Parrotlet
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Re: input asap please

Postby Pajarita » Fri Aug 28, 2015 12:43 pm

I don't know if ALL living things dream but parrots do because they have REM sleep - and it only makes sense as they are so intelligent and able to learn difficult tasks and even abstract concepts.

Now, I hope I am not making things worse for you (I can tell you are VERY upset and I don't blame you one bit!) but I have to tell you that I don't like that vet and I don't think I would have left him/her there. I don't like vets that take your animals to 'the back' for anything. I distrust the practice - what exactly is it that they do that they don't want you to see? Me, I want to see everything they are doing and, if I had heard one of my animals screaming like you did, I would have walked right in! Furthermore, I don't see why you had to leave him there. He was too stressed out just been there and leaving a possibly sick animal in a place where it's going to be highly stressed all the time is not beneficial to it in any way! Furthermore, I think they are just padding the bill because they could have done all the regular diagnostic tests during your visit, and, if they needed to do one that requires an appointment just for it (like an ultrasound, for example), they should have made you come back just for it (meaning, without charging you for another visit, just the tests).

Now, the enlarged liver is not really as bas as it sounds. Birds fed high protein end up with them all the time but the great thing about the liver is that it's the only organ that regenerates so a good diet and supplements that don't require prescription take care of that problem without any stress to the bird. Polyps is another story because if they are large enough, they require surgery but they can't tell from an XRay, they need an endoscopy for that. And it doesn't sound at all as if it was eggbinding. It's true that one of the symptoms for it is the lack of poop and the bird trying to evacuate but nothing coming out but it's never the only symptom, they crouch on the floor of the cage, they get all fluffed up , sometimes they rock (from the pain, I would imagine), sometimes they walk funny, etc. And, if they knew that the box Xray was not going to be any good, why take it? They should have given him/her a bit of gas and do a good one - much less stressful to the bird. It could be a blockage but, if it had been, it wouldn't have pooped at all and, again, endoscopy and/or ultrasound would have been needed. Having said that, at 250 gr, the bird is too skinny and the poops were too loose so, personally, if it had been my bird, I would have gotten a good XRay, fecal and blood work and brought the bird home with me to wait for the results because it could be nothing more than a long standing, low grade intestinal infection.
Pajarita
Norwegian Blue
 
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Re: input asap please

Postby Kakariki » Fri Aug 28, 2015 3:53 pm

Al I know is that the on call vet I saw last night told me they do not do anesthesia after hours, and that a parrots blood degrades too quickly to keep a sample over night.

I did get an update at noon, the proper xrays showed the liver, heart and lungs were fine, but the proventriculus is enlarged. His cloaca is inflamed. Blood results are not yet back. He is calcium deficient.

The avian vet in London is on holidays until sept. 8th.
Kakariki
Conure
 
Gender: This parrot forum member is female
Posts: 130
Location: London, ON
Number of Birds Owned: 7
Types of Birds Owned: Green Cheek Conure; Sun Conure; Kakariki; 2 budgies. 2 ringnecks
Flight: Yes

Re: input asap please

Postby Pajarita » Sat Aug 29, 2015 11:03 am

Hmmm, I wonder how they deal with middle of the night emergencies then...

I don't mean to scare you but I don't like the enlarged proventriculus at all... I would have much rather (a million times) have an enlarged liver than a proventriculus. But, it could be something like a fungal or bacterial infection (which would show on the blood results), metal poisoning (they will need to test for this) or, God forbid!, PDD so I hope from the bottom of my heart that you were doing a good quarantine!

But how do they know that he is calcium deficient if they have no blood work results yet? The only way is through an ionized calcium test...
Pajarita
Norwegian Blue
 
Gender: This parrot forum member is female
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Types of Birds Owned: RoseBreasted too, CAG, DoubleYellowHead Amazon, BlueFront Amazon, YellowNape Amazon, Senegal, African Redbelly, Quaker, Sun Conure, Nanday, BlackCap Caique, WhiteBelly Caique, PeachFace lovebird, budgies,
Flight: Yes

Re: input asap please

Postby Kakariki » Wed Sep 23, 2015 8:35 pm

Skippy seems well now. It has been 3 1/2 weeks since He was at the vet. The last of the test results did not come until sept 9th. Thankfully bornavirus was negative. He had been on an anti-inflammatory for 3 weeks for his cloaca and proventriculus. He has been eating well, taking to the gloop even though I had to hand feed it to him each morning in wee bits, eating some myself between his bites and making sounds like it was ambrosia. (It really is not bad at all, if a little bland) It was slow to start but now he eats a decent portion and of course there is also some inside his cage. I have found sources for a great variety of organic whole grains, some I had never heard of. Amaranth and teff, for two. I googled them all before including them in the diet and from aviculture sources, not just other forums where I had gotten bad advice before coming here. Hem seed and chai (or chia?) seeds is another I tried. He likes the hemp but not the other and although it is very expensive a bit now and then will not bankrupt me. I also found organic millet which he really likes cooked. He will not even try the sprigs that all the other birds love.
The vet said almonds were not a very good treat for him because of the possible effect on the inflammation (?) it's been a while and I do not remember exactly, I got no written forms, only a phone call but am planning to follow up with my vet soon as they faxed everything to him.
I was told that ALL other tests were within normal limits....

I have not had the fortitude to reply until now, as I was too upset about it all to form complete thoughts enough to put into words, AND was spending as much time as I could with Skippy while NOT ignoring the others. Internet was low on my priority list. As I had only had him 11 days before this happened I wanted to make sure to spend as much time with him as I could. During this time however, I was reading a variety of sources on bornavirus and PDD. Also I was in contact with the previous owner via email, letting him now what was going on and asking questions.
They moved to their current house less than a year ago and had been doing massive renovations. Drywall was one of them. I know from past experience how incredibly messy and dusty that is ! plus then there would be priming and painting, and having been in their house, which was open concept, I wonder if \Skippy was ingesting all of these harmful substances. The previous owner even said that it was after the move that Skippy started plucking, he thought is was because of the reduced time spent with him while they were busy with the new house. I know that could certainly have been a cause but I am thinking ( and plan to ask my vet his opinion) that all the airborn pollutants getting into his system would have had a serious effect, perhaps even caused the enlarged proventriculus ?

Now on the good side :D
OMG Skippy is a wonderful entity! Crayola :sun: was qquite jealous of him at first but has accepted his presence now. I guess she has possibly come to understand that her lot of attention is not going to be diminished by the attention I show him. Jasper, my little 'Baby Boy', my little 'Red Britches' who loves when I talk to him and bobs fiercly and chirps when I do, does not have a problem with Skippy at all. A few interactions I have been doing with both Crayola and Skippy together, games of sorts, plus dancing and singing. One game Skippy really enjoys is ...I flick or roll a plastic lid or small ball toward him and he attacks it and throws it back at me. Lots of laughing and exclaiming from both of us and Crayola on my shoulder, she seems to enjoy it too, she will at times squawk or bob her head but always is watching with apparent interest. Boris, my dog, though gets jealous when I play this game with Skippy, lol, and then I end up playing with both but I often miss the catch at those times, and Boris never wants to release his ball but would rather play tug with it !!!!

Skippy had many vocalizations when he came to me, but Doug and I have seen that he is already picking things up from me. He became mine on Aug 14th, very late in the day. Today would be day 40 if my math is correct. One question though.... As he has been ''feeding'' me lately, one time a whole (unshelled) sunflower seed came out onto my finger ( use my fingers to gently hold his beak when he presents it toward my mouth after doing the regurgitation bob, do the same with Crayola) Is it normal for a bird to swallow something whole to chew later? the other matter that comes out is gooey.
Last edited by Kakariki on Wed Sep 23, 2015 10:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Kakariki
Conure
 
Gender: This parrot forum member is female
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Types of Birds Owned: Green Cheek Conure; Sun Conure; Kakariki; 2 budgies. 2 ringnecks
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Re: input asap please

Postby Kakariki » Wed Sep 23, 2015 9:39 pm

Here is a link to ONE of the things I have read

http://www.birdchannel.com/bird-diet-an ... s-pdd.aspx

and another:

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm ... 9&aid=2263

with a short quote:
What are the signs of PDD?

A bird with PDD will be depressed, regurgitate, pass whole seeds in the feces, and often show progressive central nervous system signs. These can include ataxia, the inability to perch, head tremors, and paralysis. Seizures may actually be the first presenting sign before any signals of gastric upset are evident. Eventually, due to lack of nutrition because of the body's inability to effectively digest and assimilate food, affected birds loose the bulk of their pectoral muscle mass and the keel becomes very prominent, hence the term "wasting" disease. PDD can also masquerade as lead or zinc poisoning, foreign body ingestion, and a few other maladies, so correct diagnosis is important.

How is PDD diagnosed?

Diagnosis is generally based on history, signs, and evidence of an abnormal proventriculus. Contrast radiography using barium will most often show a greatly enlarged proventriculus, and often, a fairly normal ventriculus. Blood tests are available to test for avian bornavirus, which is believed to be the cause of the disease. Interpreting results from these tests can be difficult since birds can be infected with the virus, without it causing disease. So a positive test does not necessarily mean the signs we are seeing in the bird are actually caused by bornavirus

Skippy does not seem depressed, in my short time with him he now seems quite outgoing, chattering up a storm. he Does regurgitate more than my other birds..... there are no seeds in his stool, I look constantly now,..... he has no trouble perching, except for the stereotypical somewhat 'clumsiness' of the greys, which I have also read about in many sources,,,,, ( if they can be counted on,) I have seen him climb easily , even upside down on things he is familiar with such as his cage and the table perch that I made for him day one here, he has not had tremors or siezures or anything that resembles paralysis.... so I am hoping it has been an environmental circumstance which can be hopefully cleared up with time. Perhaps this is wishful thinking and perhaps I have cleaved onto the few things I have read about the proventriculus that coud be environmental, I have not included all the links, just a couple of basic info sites that seem clear and not overly esoteric. I only use bird safe cleaners, I do not use aerosols of any kind. If I were going to do renos I would relocate the birds to a safe area of the house and spend a great deal of time in that area when I was not doing the reno. Their wellbing is of utmost concern and the time it would take is of no consequence. My children are grown, My birds are my children now.
Kakariki
Conure
 
Gender: This parrot forum member is female
Posts: 130
Location: London, ON
Number of Birds Owned: 7
Types of Birds Owned: Green Cheek Conure; Sun Conure; Kakariki; 2 budgies. 2 ringnecks
Flight: Yes

Re: input asap please

Postby liz » Thu Sep 24, 2015 6:59 am

Wolf wrote:I have no idea as I have never seen this with any of my birds.



It sounds like what Rambo and Myrtle do when they are hormonal. Their little rectums pulsate. When Myrtle was too young to know what was going on he presented his butt to her and she bit it.
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Re: input asap please

Postby Wolf » Thu Sep 24, 2015 7:52 am

Well at this time things seem to be looking up and while I would continue to keep a close watch, I would not allow myself to be too obsessive about it. But then I always watch my birds very closely, it is my nature to do so.
Kookooloo, my Grey loves to play ball with me. She runs to the ball and pounces on it and then grabs it and lobs it in my general direction, she loves it when it gets past me and I have to go after it. Sometimes she isn't too careful about when she releases the ball and tosses it straight up and it comes back down and bonks her in the head.
She also likes to wrestle with my hand and then flip over on her back for a couple of seconds and then she laughs like a maniac when I flip her back up on her feet.
Kookooloo regurgitates for me on a regular basis, but I have never seen a whole or unshelled sunflower or any other type of seed in it but the gooey part seems to be normal depending mostly in how long she has had it in her crop.
I must say that I am utterly fascinated by her, of course I also say this about all of my birds, but it is true.
Wolf
Macaw
 
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Re: input asap please

Postby Pajarita » Thu Sep 24, 2015 11:00 am

Thank you for remembering us and giving us an update. I was thinking about your bird and a couple of others that had left things 'hanging' and was going to ask Wolf to send a couple of messages to them because I can't shake the worry when I don't know what is happening (not that I don't realize that I have no right to an update because I do... but I still worry).

If the bornavirus test came back negative, he doesn't have PDD (tests are very good now). But, in all truth, PDD is such a difficult disease that one cannot get too hanged up on symptoms or becoming obsessed about it. My best avian vet had a cockatoo with PDD for years without presenting any clear symptom, the only problem she could ascertain was that he was a super picky eater and would always be a bit underweight ... until he got a hole in his proventriculus and when she went to repair it with surgery, discovered the damage done to it, took him to the PennU avian clinic and came back with the dreaded diagnosis.

Yesterday was the autumnal equinox so the grays, which are short days breeders, will now begin to reduce their sexual hormonal production. This will give you a good point of reference for his regurgitation as it should stop in a few weeks. None of my birds regurgitates for me, not even the ones without mates but I've had them for years and I am very strict about their solar schedule and seasonal change in diet.
Pajarita
Norwegian Blue
 
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