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The Positive Side of Negative Reinforcement

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Re: The Positive Side of Negative Reinforcement

Postby GreenWing » Thu May 01, 2014 2:48 am

LisaB wrote:I get what you're saying. However, I wasn't really presenting an argument, merely stating my gut reaction to something. If I'm going to challenge someone, I'm going to state why I disagree and then I'm going to give all the reasons why I believe my opinion is more valid. I'm not going to jump onto a forum, read a few things and then start name-calling.

I've never joined a forum before and my hesitation to do so was based on my experiences with some bird people--not all, but some. I usually approach people, animals and life in general with a sense of humor, but every once in a while someone gets under my skin. If there is one thing I've learned in life, it's that I will continually do and say stupid shit. I realized a long time ago that I'm not always right; I'm constantly having to admit this, so it doesn't even bother me any more.

Thank goodness for that, or every time I looked old pictures and some of my fashion decisions, I'd want to kill myself.



It's honorable that you state such; hey, we're all human and not infallible.

I just wish people -- and I don't mean you in saying this -- would control themselves more. I hate to see Michael, someone I regard as a friend, get trashed in such a disrespectful way. I also witness others on this site who have so much to offer, get attacked, as well... and I don't like it.
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Re: The Positive Side of Negative Reinforcement

Postby LisaB » Thu May 01, 2014 9:31 am

Amen to that. I don't like seeing someone attacked either, which is why the post made me so angry in the first place. I didn't mean to say that everyone on this forum is an angry bird expert, though re-reading what I wrote, I can see how it might have sounded that way. What I meant was that I wasn't sure I got could stomach the kind of conceit shown in the post that got under my skin. In the end it's not worth it. I know better...but like I said, I still continue to act like an idiot occasionally. Forgive me.
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Re: The Positive Side of Negative Reinforcement

Postby CaitlinRice413 » Fri May 02, 2014 8:41 pm

:mrgreen:
Last edited by CaitlinRice413 on Mon Sep 08, 2014 1:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Positive Side of Negative Reinforcement

Postby GreenWing » Fri May 02, 2014 10:50 pm

LisaB wrote:Amen to that. I don't like seeing someone attacked either, which is why the post made me so angry in the first place


Cool :) I am with you there, agreed on all points, LisaB.


CaitlinRice413 wrote:Even though you were speaking generally greenwing, I figure you thought of my dramatic exit and inevitable return when making that comment. It doesn't really bother me. But I feel the need to express something here and I hope it isn't completely lost.


Lol, it was just a general comment.
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Re: The Positive Side of Negative Reinforcement

Postby Wolf » Sat May 03, 2014 8:11 am

Hi CaitlinRice413 ;

Loved reading your view on Michael's food management methods. I enjoy such discussions, I don't like name calling or personal attacks.
I would love to have you post on the regular areas of the forum, and share your opinions and experiences with the rest of us.
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Re: The Positive Side of Negative Reinforcement

Postby cml » Sat May 03, 2014 8:37 am

Caitlin,
I've stayed away from this post because it's been full of angry attacks and mud slinging back and forth but I feel I need to make a few comments. Please dont leave the forums again, at least we can TRY to keep it civil :)?

I have read the article you provided, authored by Barbara Heidenreich.

I think you are over-reacting to and over-thinking weight management, as is Barbara. There is a distinct difference between food/weight management and food deprivation - which I think you are missing.

Barbara actually states early on in her article, that she will look on food management from the perspective that it is only used for getting a bird to perform better during training (second paragraph, in Background, p1). She declares that this is food management, and because of this semantics, we should all adopt her thinking towards what the words food management encompass.

Already here, I think she makes a huge mistake!
She talks about other aspects that could be beneficial, such as maintaining a healthy weight, as a diagnostic help to determine the health of a bird and/if or they turn ill, but quickly dismisses these major benefits so that she can continue her bashing. She states and I quote, that they are "separate" topics, and I believe with that premise the whole article is biased to say the least.

I personally use food management, not as a training tool, but because I believe that I should monitor what my parrots eat and prevent them from getting to much of anything or becoming obese, a very regular problem for Amazons, as is liver failure due to free feeding of fat (seeds etc).

Through monitoring my parrots weight, and carefully adapting their diets, Ive been able to find a level in which they get:
A certain amount of pellets each morning, and a different set of veggies/fruit/other stuff each night. This ensures that I support them with the necessary mix of protein, fat and vitamins and minerals. They eat rich amounts of food, are not hungry during the day, and maintain a healthy weight.
This is not dissimilar to how people should do with themselvs, we humans should be much more aware as to what we eat and could do with a little more food management ourselvs (and indeed, since getting birds I am much more aware of this myself and have adapted accordingly, resulting in a stable healthy weight and I feel a lot more healthy. Not a bad thing, no?

What I think you are reacting to is that a parrot should be deprived of food to perform training better. I can agree to a certain point, you should NOT starve a parrot to get it to perform tricks better. You should use food management as a tool to keep your friend healthy!

On the other hand, consider this, why not do training just before dinner to increase motivation? Provided you have a good diet, maintain your parrot in a healthy state and at a healthy weight, why not use the fact that a parrot is more motivated before dinner than after? I see no issue with it.
I dont always do this myself, my two are so motivated by treats that it doesnt matter if I train before, during or after dinner ;), they dont get seeds from anything else than training so they are always motivated without taking the food management into account.
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Re: The Positive Side of Negative Reinforcement

Postby CaitlinRice413 » Sat May 03, 2014 1:43 pm

:sun:
Last edited by CaitlinRice413 on Mon Sep 08, 2014 6:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Positive Side of Negative Reinforcement

Postby cml » Sat May 03, 2014 1:59 pm

You are confusing bias and semantics with scientific facts.

I am most certainly not. "Food management" consists of two words. Food and management, which mean two things that I think we all know? Food is something you eat which will (most often) give you nutrition (http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/defin ... ood?q=food). Management means to control or to arrange (http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/defin ... e?q=manage).
This is facts.

You and Heidenreich both seem very intent on making this be about semantics, rather than facts.

The term "Food Management", contrary to what you present, is loaded with feelings which you show in your responses. Heidenreich decides in her article, just as I stated to determine that:
Food Management = Lessening the amount of food to get a bird to perform tricks better.

This is incorrect. She can determine that she calls that kind of behaviour "Food Management", but that does not make it true. To me, and many others, food management entails much more than getting motivation from your bird. Infact, as I wrote above, its the least of my reasons for using it. To state that health and other beneficial terms of food management are "separate" things is wrong and makes for a biased article.

I use "Food Management" to ensure that my birds eat a well balanced diet, and enough food to keep them at a healthy weight. Note that I write healthy weight, not underweight to perform better.
Why wouldn't you ask that before doing something that could possibly starve your animal?
My birds are, with food management, kept at their optimum weight for health. Not underweight, not even a few percent. Their optimal weight is based on 2.5 years worth of data as well as bi-annual vet visits to avian specialists.

That is what "Food management" means to me = managing their food supply and intake.
If you cant get the semantics right, or dont want to listen to other people's thoughts about something, there is no point in discussing it.

I dont disagree with you that "Food Deprivation (to deprive of food)" is bad. This is mainly what Heidenreich is talking about in her article, and with better wording her article would have been so much better. There was some interesting ideas in it, but it loses credit when confusing two quite different things so early on in it.

Please understand that I am not trying to change your feelings, but present to you some "facts" about semantics, words and food management.
Food Management is NOT the same as monitoring the health of an animal.

As above, it all comes down to the definition of food management. If you decide that food management = food deprivation, then this discussion wont bear any fruit.
But if YOU keep an open mind and dont take Heidenreich's, or anyone's, word as the absolute truth, then I am sure we can have healthy discussions and keep learning - the best reason to participate in a forum for.

Best regards,
CML
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Re: The Positive Side of Negative Reinforcement

Postby Wayne361 » Sat May 03, 2014 3:06 pm

Bravo! CML Bravo!! You said it better than myself. On another forum and other dh's cant grasp this. They think food management is starving bird. Not true. I think 100percent of parrot owners would agree starvation is WRONG.

Thanks for that response,

Wayne
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Re: The Positive Side of Negative Reinforcement

Postby GreenWing » Sat May 03, 2014 3:42 pm

Well said, CML. :thumbsup:
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