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The Positive Side of Negative Reinforcement

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The Positive Side of Negative Reinforcement

Postby Michael » Thu Apr 17, 2014 1:06 pm

The Positive Side of Negative Reinforcement

Article about negative reinforcement focusing on some good ways to apply negative reinforcement and comparing to the bad ways of using it in parrot training.
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Michael
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Re: The Positive Side of Negative Reinforcement

Postby Wayne361 » Thu Apr 17, 2014 7:22 pm

Great refresher Michael. Thanks for that.

Wayne
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Re: The Positive Side of Negative Reinforcement

Postby rebcart » Fri Apr 18, 2014 9:02 am

Michael,

I think you haven't fully explored the downsides and ethical ramifications of using negative reinforcement in the way you describe. Let me know what you think of this article on the topic.
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Re: The Positive Side of Negative Reinforcement

Postby Michael » Fri Apr 18, 2014 10:21 am

Thanks for commenting and bringing a different article into the discussion. Clearly I oppose the "version 1" types of aversives that are intentionally human caused. However when it comes to "version 2" examples of thunder and cowering near a door, note that negative reinforcement is already being used by that very trainer! The very act of letting the scared dog into the house is a reward for coming to the door and cowering. Negative reinforcement is being applied whether you like it or not!

With a parrot, listening to that advice could be catastrophic. For example, the parrot is outside in the aviary and wants to come home because a storm started. So the parrot starts screaming its butt off. So you come out and take it inside for protection. You negatively reinforced screaming. Now the parrot knows that to go home all it needs to do is scream. If on the other hand you required a desirable behavior such as talking, stationing, or recalling, then the parrot would have an appropriate form to ask for your help that does not lead to bad habits in other situations.

In situations where we want to "rescue" our parrot (and it wants it too), you may as well ask for at least a miniscule exhibition of good behavior. Say a clipped parrot falls on the floor and wants to be taken off. Instead of running up to pick it up, stay and let it walk to you. There's an example of teaching the parrot to come to you for help. Negative reinforcement will occur regardless but in my second scenario you would avoid teaching the parrot to jump on the floor for attention on purpose whereas in the first one where you run to help, some parrots begin to do that on purpose.

I think I am very explicit in that I do not support or recommend most kinds of negative reinforcement. But there are times when it's a good thing and you can shape the kind of behavior that elicits your reaction.
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Re: The Positive Side of Negative Reinforcement

Postby KaratParrot » Mon Apr 21, 2014 7:47 pm

I agree with rebcart even after Micheal's reply. Micheal seems to almost have a full and balanced understanding but is still severely lacking to be touting this to the public.

I laugh at what he says here:
"The professional does not seek to have a personal relationship with the animal like a pet owner would....But just because professionals misuse negative reinforcement..." and then goes on to talk about Negative Reinforcement (R-) and flighted parrots. What do you think the modern day professional does if not train flighted parrots through a good relationship?

A professional trainer that "...walks around with a stick, hook, or whip..." is not where the modern trend is going. It seems Micheal takes a cheap shot at the only people qualified to explain such ideas as R- to boost his own credentials.

Clearly Micheal Sahzin is not "in the loop" when it comes to being a self proclaimed professional working with birds.
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Re: The Positive Side of Negative Reinforcement

Postby CaitlinRice413 » Thu Apr 24, 2014 4:31 pm

:mrgreen:
Last edited by CaitlinRice413 on Mon Sep 08, 2014 6:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Positive Side of Negative Reinforcement

Postby LisaB » Fri Apr 25, 2014 2:35 pm

KaratParrot wrote:Clearly Micheal Sahzin is not "in the loop" when it comes to being a self proclaimed professional working with birds.


Any time someone presents a theory that rubs up against what is the accepted theory of the time, that person is ridiculed. Thank goodness there have been people willing to push back. Otherwise, we'd still be afraid of sailing off the edge of a flat world, we'd still believe the sun orbited the earth and we'd be plastering leeches all over people with the flu.

What Michael suggests is interesting. Removing an animal from an unpleasant situation that already exists in order to reinforce trust is not the same as leaving an animal in an unpleasant situation while you force it to perform some action. Michael is merely proposing that we watch closely for opportunities to strengthen the bond of trust we have with our parrots. Declaring that Michael is “out of the loop” because he looks at negative reinforcement from another angle is absurd. Stating that he is a “self-proclaimed professional” is to completely disregard the large number of people who follow him online and find he has a great deal of insight to offer. I simply cannot understand why people feel the need to slander when they disagree with something, rather than respond with constructive criticism.

In the words of one of my favorite people: "What is right is not always popular and what is popular is not always right." – Albert Einstein
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Re: The Positive Side of Negative Reinforcement

Postby KaratParrot » Sat Apr 26, 2014 10:52 pm

That's a beautiful response CaitlinRice413! What you just said is what people like Barbara Heidenreich has been teaching for years. But Micheal seems to think she's not great because she uses positive reinforcement as a way to sell her products (well who wouldn't!?).

What you just described, CaitlinRice413, is exactly what Micheal has not understood for a long, long, time simply because he has not had training from the top professionals (like Barbara) that are out there. Don't cast your pearls here, why not start a blog of your own?

And with Micheal Sahzin's track record of misunderstanding negative reinforcement, misapplication of the four contingencies of behavior, lack of concern for ethical application of the four contingencies, promoting weight management for every parrot, having Kili BITE him on America's Got Talent (his excuse is "stage fright"), and then recently having Truman blown away because he didn't teach Truman how to fly in wind? Jesus this kid needs to put down his imagined authority!
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Re: The Positive Side of Negative Reinforcement

Postby Wayne361 » Sun Apr 27, 2014 1:23 pm

KaratParrot wrote:That's a beautiful response CaitlinRice413! What you just said is what people like Barbara Heidenreich has been teaching for years. But Micheal seems to think she's not great because she uses positive reinforcement as a way to sell her products (well who wouldn't!?).

What you just described, CaitlinRice413, is exactly what Micheal has not understood for a long, long, time simply because he has not had training from the top professionals (like Barbara) that are out there. Don't cast your pearls here, why not start a blog of your own?

And with Micheal Sahzin's track record of misunderstanding negative reinforcement, misapplication of the four contingencies of behavior, lack of concern for ethical application of the four contingencies, promoting weight management for every parrot, having Kili BITE him on America's Got Talent (his excuse is "stage fright"), and then recently having Truman blown away because he didn't teach Truman how to fly in wind? Jesus this kid needs to put down his imagined authority!


You need to lose your self-righteousness attitute. Seriously, if you dont like his teachings and/or methodologies then troll another forum. Seems like the normal thing to do.
There are several parrot forums that I have abandoned for the same reason. I dont like the message being spewed i.e. pro-clipping etc and so I leave. I might try pointing out advantages but when everyone in forum gangs up and basically treats you like you just killed a newborn baby for an opinion, its time to leave.

Its fairly simple. If you dont have a vested interest in discrediting someone who has helped A LOT of people then its probably best to take a hike. If you do have a vested interest in discrediting Michaeal then even a better reason to leave. I dont welcome myself into someone else's home, eat their food and then tell them its crap. Its simply not right. So if you are a morally spirited person this is probably a good time to bugger of.

All the best,

Wayne
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Re: The Positive Side of Negative Reinforcement

Postby CaitlinRice413 » Sun Apr 27, 2014 10:17 pm

:danicing:
Last edited by CaitlinRice413 on Mon Sep 08, 2014 1:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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