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Older bird / new person

Discuss the methods and techniques of clicker training, target training and bonding. These are usually the first steps in training a young parrot.

Older bird / new person

Postby KSilva » Thu Mar 04, 2021 7:02 pm

I am new to a family with a 20 year old parrot who's favorite person passed away a little over 16 months ago. She will step up for me but has a tendency to bite especially if the spouse of the person who passed away is in the room as well. I've been working on acclimating to her over the last two months but don't seem to be making much progress. The training advice seems geared to younger birds. Any advice would be helpful.
KSilva
Parakeet
 
Gender: This parrot forum member is female
Posts: 9
Number of Birds Owned: 1
Types of Birds Owned: Yellow napped amazon parrot
Flight: Yes

Re: Older bird / new person

Postby Pajarita » Fri Mar 05, 2021 1:47 pm

Welcome to the forum, KSilva, and I am sorry you are having problems with your bird. Now, what you need is not to train your bird but to get it to bond with you. I know that trainers claim that training creates a bond but it doesn't. It can certainly reinforce the bond if the training is done correctly (and that is another issue!) but it does not create it.

All my birds came from somebody else so I have a bit of experience on getting them to bond with me but, in all honesty, I don't really do anything to make them love me except allow them to set the pace, the degree of the relationship and respect them as sentient, highly intelligent beings. I will tell you what I do and you make your decision on what to do yourself.

For one thing, I never, ever, ever train them. I also do not ask them to do anything for me (like stepping up to my hand, for example). When they first come to me, they stay in their cage until I see that they are comfortable in their new home and my presence (how long this takes depends on the bird, its age, previous circumstances, etc) - then I simply open the door to their cage and walk away. I am always home and because I've been doing this for a looooong time, I have a very (VERY) steady routine within a super strict solar schedule and have developed a great diet for them - light schedule and diet are super important because they are the two main triggers of sexual hormones and a bird that is overly hormonal is usually aggressive and, possibly, in chronic pain. Steady, unchanging routines and schedules make them feel safe (which reduces stress and anxiety), the right diet (for an amazon, it should be low protein and fat and high fiber and moisture) and the right schedule keep a bird not only healthy but also physically and emotionally comfortable so the first thing you need to do is to re-evaluate these three things. Once you establish the solar schedule and daily routines and started the switch to a good diet (if any of these things needed change), you can start concentrating in 'making friends' with her. Spend hours in the same room with her (after breakfast and before noon is the best time for this), do not stare at her, just do your own thing (play video games, watch TV, read a book, work on your computer, clean, whatever), talk/sing/whistle to her often and, every now and then, offer her a high value item as a treat - this is not a reward or a bribe, she doesn't need to 'earn' it, it's a gift from you to her. Now, mind you, this doesn't work unless you are feeding her right because if she is being free-fed protein food (seeds, nuts, pellets, nutriberries, avicakes, etc), it won't work at all (aside from the fact that free-feeding protein to a parrot kills them before their time). As time goes by, she will start anticipating your presence/company and will want to 'up a notch' your relationship with her by asking you to allow her on your shoulder or for you to give her scritches - and, when she does, give her whatever it is she wants from you and you will be on your way to becoming 'her' human. But, only do this if you are willing and able to keep this commitment for the next 20, 30 years because getting her to bond with you without the long term commitment would be cruel (they are not like dogs, they don't love every single human, they only bond with one)

Female amazons that are cared for properly are mild-tempered, super affectionate and quite easy to care for because they are natural good eaters, great bathers and not demanding at all in terms of 'entertainment' so re-evaluate her light schedule, routine (out-of-cage and one-on-one time, games, toys, etc), diet, spend time with her and she will become your friend in a matter of months (you will have to wait until the summer when she molts for her to 'calm down' if she has not been getting the right conditions because we are in breeding season right now).
Pajarita
Norwegian Blue
 
Gender: This parrot forum member is female
Posts: 18701
Location: NW Pa
Number of Birds Owned: 30
Types of Birds Owned: RoseBreasted too, CAG, DoubleYellowHead Amazon, BlueFront Amazon, YellowNape Amazon, Senegal, African Redbelly, Quaker, Sun Conure, Nanday, BlackCap Caique, WhiteBelly Caique, PeachFace lovebird, budgies,
Flight: Yes

Re: Older bird / new person

Postby KSilva » Sat Mar 06, 2021 2:30 pm

Pajarita, thank you so much for your thoughtful, caring and helpful response to my post. If I may, I'd like to ask you a few more questions. First, let me assure you that I understand and accept the commitment.

McGregor (originally her previous human thought she was a male until she laid an egg when she was about 16 years old) is in a home wirh me, 3 small dogs and the other human (male) i am a recent addition to the household but in a committed relationship. McGregor had previously bonded to the other humans spouse who passed away a little less than 2 years ago. While my partner did some work with McGregor, when I arrived it was clear she really needed much more attention and love. Okay that's the background.

First, she has always been free fed and always has a mix of seeds, nuts and nutriberries in her dish. She is typically given a piece of bread crust first thing in the morning and creates quite a vocal fuss if it is neglected. I'm told that she has never eaten pellets when previously mixed with her food. My question is how best to transition her and perhaps the best mix of food.

Second, she seems much more likely to bite one of us when both humans are in the room. How do i best work toward enabling us both to be in the same room at the same ?

That's all for now. Again thank you for your help.
KSilva
Parakeet
 
Gender: This parrot forum member is female
Posts: 9
Number of Birds Owned: 1
Types of Birds Owned: Yellow napped amazon parrot
Flight: Yes

Re: Older bird / new person

Postby Pajarita » Sun Mar 07, 2021 10:15 am

OK. The very first thing you need to do is to change her diet because what she is eating now will not only kill her (she most likely already has advanced liver damage -more on that below) but is also part of what is making her aggressive. Female amazons that are not overly-hormonal are never aggressive, quite the contrary, they are calm and affectionate. My very first rescue was a female redlored amazon and she was given up because of aggression but, once her endocrine system was back on track and attuned to the seasons, she turned into a sweetheart (I had to put her down due to bone cancer in both her legs). She was so mean, she used to hang on to the edge of her cage door and stretch her entire body out so she could bite you as you were walking by :lol:

So, first order of business is to put her on a fresh food diet with supplements to cleanse her liver and kidneys because free-feeding them protein food (nutriberries, seeds, nuts, etc) gives them high uric acid (which makes crystals and stones in their kidneys and joints) and fatty nodules in their liver (hepatic lipidosis - aka fatty liver disease). Make her a simple grain gloop with the grains cooked at a hard al dente (bring them to a boil and allow them to simmer for not more than 20 minutes). Do not add any veggies to the mix (use oat groats, kamut, hulled barley, spelt, wheat kernels) until she is eating the grains. Take out her seed/nut and her water dish at night, after she goes to sleep and, at dawn (and it does have to be at dawn, I am sorry to say), replace them with medicated water as follows: 3/4 spring water, 1/4 organic aloe vera juice from the inner filet -not gel and not from the entire leaf with a double dosage of a good vitamin/mineral supplement (she has not been getting any vitamins, right? - get the kind that is a powder soluble in water, I use ABBA 2000). And put the grain mix in her bowl with a little bit of a good quality budgie seed mix mixed in as well as one capsule of each of the following: milk thistle (250 mg kind), dandelion root and methionine - you can also add some spices to it to make it more attractive: the smallest sprinkle of cinnamon, chili powder, red pepper flakes, etc.

She most likely will only eat the seed for the first two days or so but she will start eating the grains soon after and you will know because you will find something that looks like empty white 'skins'. Once she goes for the gloop as soon as you put it in and eats the grains, discontinue the seeds and start adding veggies to it. Start with corn (they all ADORE corn!), then peas (another favorite), then diced carrots, then chopped broccoli, etc until you are serving the whole recipe (you will find several in the diet section). Also offer her raw produce because she desperately needs the phytonutrients in them... my zons favorites are apples, grapes, mangoes, cantaloupes, carrots, corn on the cob, red Swiss chard, romaine hearts, bok choy, pears, etc. Eat a piece of fruit in front of her without offering any but put a piece of your own fruit (from the other side where you are not biting so no human mouth bacteria goes on it) in front of her and make yummy noises. It takes time but if you are consistent and persistent, she will start eating some and, as time goes by, her range will increase (amazons are VERY good eaters of produce). You should also make her a nice, healthy birdy bread (with veggies and fruits in it) instead of giving her human bread (all cereal products manufactured for human consumption have too much iron for birds - and excess iron is also stored in the liver - VERY unhealthy for them!). If you don't have a bread machine, I recommend you get one because it's super easy to make bird for them in one - I put everything in it at night before I go to sleep and in the morning, the birds have fresh birdy bread for breakfast. And the best thing is that they love it regardless of how it comes out! Too dense? No problem! Too dry? No problem! Too moist? No problem! :lol:

Also, make sure she is kept at a strict solar schedule with exposure to dawn and dusk without any artificial lights on because although they are now in breeding season, they will stop producing sexual hormones once they go into molt -which happens in the summer.

As to how to make her stop biting one of you when both are in the room... well, actually, it will happen on its own once she stops producing sexual hormones but, in the meantime, no PDAs in front of her and do not interact with her physically (meaning, no stepping up to a hand, and keep a distance between you and her as well as an eye if she flies well). Go about your business in a nonchalant manner but do talk and sing to her (they LOVE music and, if you pay attention, she will let you know what kind she prefers) and, if you see she is getting 'hot under the collar' (her body will be tense, she will lean forward and keep her eyes on you and her eyes will pin), give her a nice cool bath with a spray bottle - amazons love baths and they are a great way of 'bringing the heat down' when they are hormonal. And always, always, always keep a good perching stick handy (I use a long dowel to 'ward off' attacks during breeding season).
Pajarita
Norwegian Blue
 
Gender: This parrot forum member is female
Posts: 18701
Location: NW Pa
Number of Birds Owned: 30
Types of Birds Owned: RoseBreasted too, CAG, DoubleYellowHead Amazon, BlueFront Amazon, YellowNape Amazon, Senegal, African Redbelly, Quaker, Sun Conure, Nanday, BlackCap Caique, WhiteBelly Caique, PeachFace lovebird, budgies,
Flight: Yes

Re: Older bird / new person

Postby KSilva » Sun Mar 07, 2021 2:36 pm

Once again, thank you so much. We are preparing the gloop now and thinking we could freeze portions in ice cube trays, defrosting as necessary. Since we have only done free feeding, do we now feedi only once in the morning and then remove any unfinished food at night? Any recommendations on potion size for her? You have been very generous with your help and it is much appreciated. Thank you.
KSilva
Parakeet
 
Gender: This parrot forum member is female
Posts: 9
Number of Birds Owned: 1
Types of Birds Owned: Yellow napped amazon parrot
Flight: Yes

Re: Older bird / new person

Postby KSilva » Sun Mar 07, 2021 2:40 pm

Oops, remembered one more thing. You mentioned "birdy bread" and we do have a bread machine. Any recipies you could point us to?
KSilva
Parakeet
 
Gender: This parrot forum member is female
Posts: 9
Number of Birds Owned: 1
Types of Birds Owned: Yellow napped amazon parrot
Flight: Yes

Re: Older bird / new person

Postby Pajarita » Mon Mar 08, 2021 10:05 am

For breakfast, you can give her as much gloop as she wants. I am not sure why (never found a single study on this) but, based on my personal experience. they can eat as much gloop as they want and as often as they want and they do not gain weight. I think the reasons for this are:
1) it's whole grains and veggies so there is A LOT of natural fiber in there
2) the grains, which are the 'fattening' part of the gloop, are cooked and, as such, infused with water to three and four times their size so the birds feel full but with much fewer calories.
3) I once read a study that said that organic food is not as fattening as 'regular' food but I think that this is mostly meant for animal products like meat, eggs, etc.
And yes, of course you can freeze it but I would not be in a hurry to do it because you are going to have to keep on tweaking (adding) ingredients until she eats the whole recipe. I actually make a large batch of grains and pulses and split that into two halves. One half I freeze as it is and the other half I mix with the veggies ending up with, roughly, 14 or 15 daily baggies. When I see that I only have three baggies left, I take the 'saved half', thaw it and make more gloop with it.

For dinner (at dusk - this time of the year, around 5 pm), remove the gloop and give her two level measuring tablespoons of a good quality budgie seed mix (it sounds like a lot but, because the mix is made out of very small seeds, it's more husks than anything else).

As to a birdy bread recipe... well, in all honesty, I don't really have one because the birds like it any which way it comes out but I can tell you that I use the whole wheat bread setting and the total amount of flour is the same as a whole wheat bread recipe (I do the 2 lb setting in the machine because I have a lot of birds). I use whole or cracked wheat flour (2 cups) as well as coarse corn meal (1 cup), steel cut or regular oatmeal (1 cup) - sometimes I reduce the oatmeal to half a cup and add another half a cup of some other kind of flour like spelt, potato, rice, etc. but, usually, it's steel cut oats because they are so very healthy for them (it helps them produce and store adequate levels of serotonin, the happy hormone). One envelop of dry yeast, orange or some other sort of juice (make sure it does not have added sugar) and pumpkin (or sweet potato but usually pumpkin because I just open the can) puree for moisture and, although I sometimes make 'spicy' bread, I usually make it fruity adding currants and/or raisins, dried figs and/or dates, organic/unsulfured apple chips and/or mango and/or pineapple bits and/or apricots, mashed bananas, fresh corn (from a can), grated carrots, etc. It comes out dark, dense and heavy but the birds love it (and I actually like it myself, too) and it's a great way of getting fruits and veggies into them when they still have not learned to eat them raw. You can also freeze birdy bread in daily portions - I don't need to do it because I have so many birds that they eat almost the whole thing in a single day :lol:

Let me know if you have any more questions, doubts, etc.
Pajarita
Norwegian Blue
 
Gender: This parrot forum member is female
Posts: 18701
Location: NW Pa
Number of Birds Owned: 30
Types of Birds Owned: RoseBreasted too, CAG, DoubleYellowHead Amazon, BlueFront Amazon, YellowNape Amazon, Senegal, African Redbelly, Quaker, Sun Conure, Nanday, BlackCap Caique, WhiteBelly Caique, PeachFace lovebird, budgies,
Flight: Yes

Re: Older bird / new person

Postby KSilva » Tue Mar 09, 2021 12:44 pm

Sorry to bother you once again, but I'm a little confused about free feeding, possible liver damage, and eating seeds. She can eat seeds, but only at dinner and a little at breakfast until she's used to the gloop.?
KSilva
Parakeet
 
Gender: This parrot forum member is female
Posts: 9
Number of Birds Owned: 1
Types of Birds Owned: Yellow napped amazon parrot
Flight: Yes

Re: Older bird / new person

Postby Pajarita » Tue Mar 09, 2021 1:50 pm

Yes, she can eat a little sprinkle of a budgie seed mix (budgies mix is always made out of grass seeds which are lower in fat and protein) and two tablespoons of the same mix for dinner but, as soon as she starts eating the gloop (and she will start in a couple of days), you eliminate the seeds and give her just the gloop.

See, the thing is that amazons cannot eat a lot of protein, fat or even carbs because the excess ends up being 'transformed' into fat. Some of this fat will deposit on their body in the form of subcutaneous fat (like people have when they are fat), some will go to their liver in the form of fatty nodules and some might even end up in fatty tumors (like xanthomas) but even when you don't see anything, the fat is all over the cardiovascular system (high cholesterol!).

We do not have many good dietary studies when it comes to parrots because they are so long-lived that it's almost impossible to actually get any real good results (the scientists would have to wait 20, 30 years for any true results). The ones we do have, like the famous Roudybush ones, are actually not good at all because they are done in one year or less and parrots, same as people, can eat garbage for a year and not really show any serious consequences but years of the same bad diet destroys them (same as people eating fast, fried food). We do, however, have a real good study on amazons! It was done in the wild in South America and what they did was follow a flock for an entire year collecting their poop and analyzing it - and they found that amazons eat a maximum of17% protein during breeding seasons. Now, if you look at the nutritional labels on seed mixes, pellets, etc. you will see that the greatest majority of them are over than percentage and, taking into consideration that pet birds get this food all year round (year after year), don't fly miles and miles everyday, do not have babies to feed, are not exposed to the elements and are, unfortunately for them and us, very inferior health-wise to their wild counterparts (no natural selection and bad diet and conditions for the parents, the grandparents, etc), owners need to be very vigilant about their diet. To put the icing on the cake, the entire pet industry is unregulated and the manufacturers can claim whatever they want on the labels, even if it's a lie and even if it's the actual opposite [like when they say that pellets are nutritionally complete, for example) so it's very hard for us, bird keepers, to figure out what is good and what is not.

Your bird has been eating the wrong diet for many years and it's a given that she has organ damage so I strongly urge you to start her off as soon as possible on the supplements and better diet - which I have no doubt you will do because I can tell that you are not only committed to this bird but also the kind to roll up your sleeves and get to 'it' :thumbsup:
Pajarita
Norwegian Blue
 
Gender: This parrot forum member is female
Posts: 18701
Location: NW Pa
Number of Birds Owned: 30
Types of Birds Owned: RoseBreasted too, CAG, DoubleYellowHead Amazon, BlueFront Amazon, YellowNape Amazon, Senegal, African Redbelly, Quaker, Sun Conure, Nanday, BlackCap Caique, WhiteBelly Caique, PeachFace lovebird, budgies,
Flight: Yes

Re: Older bird / new person

Postby KSilva » Tue Mar 09, 2021 9:49 pm

Ok, thank you so much! You've been a lifesaver!,
KSilva
Parakeet
 
Gender: This parrot forum member is female
Posts: 9
Number of Birds Owned: 1
Types of Birds Owned: Yellow napped amazon parrot
Flight: Yes

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