one refuses to step up& the other just panics

[sgtpepper]

Well.. here I write again!

We have managed to make Zaura, our female CAG, step up about 2 months ago.
However, she is really stubborn and does not do that automatically. I know it takes time to gain trust and all that, but her problem is that she ONLY steps up when she likes the treat she is about to receive. So basically, i put my hand and point the clicker towards it, and then she checks me out to see if she likes the treat or not. If she does like it, then she will step up. If she doesn't, then she goes away and won't follow the clicker the entire training session.
Of course, as soon as I caught up to that I started keeping the treats in my pockets. But as soon as she sees that she does not like them, she leaves.

On the other hand, Dino cooperates really well and follows the clicker all over the place(well, until he gets close to your hands, feet, or any other body part; then he looses it and bites REALLY HARD!)
I tried clicking when he's comfortable with my hands and then try this closer and closer, but he's crazy! He sometimes panics and bites my finger when i give him a treat! and i do things really slowly around them!

Any thoughts on that?

[Wolf]

I am sure that the clicker serves well to attract their attention to where the sound comes from. Zaura is an intelligent creature, well they both are, and it shows in this situation. She looks to see what you are showing her and then turns away if the offering is not something that she likes, as if to say to you if that is the best you can offer, I will just do my own thing. You know, I can really respect that as I will not trade my time for less than I feel that it is worth either. I also won't trade my time for something that I don't like. Go Zaura!! Good Bird!!
For what it is worth, you have no concept of what you have with these two birds. They are so very intelligent and you seem to expect them to act like a mindless contraption. Take a couple of steps back, and now take a couple of good deep breaths and slowly release them along with your frustrations. Good. Now , stop and consider exactly what the word intelligence means and implies.
Dino and Zaura, both have your number and are trying to let you know, each in their own fashion. Greys are very special birds and it is only due in part to their intelligence. They also seem to have another ability that you don't know about, and it is the stuff of legend. You would know about it by now if you were doing your homework and studying up on this bird. I don't know exactly how it works with them, but I suspect that it is due to their intelligence, their ability to see into the ultra violet wavelengths of light, and their keen observance of body language, but it functions to the extent that they are very often aware of our emotional state even before it has risen from the depths of our unconscious into our conscious awareness. It verges on being and may it truth be that they are empathic. Pretty cool, huh?
Now, it makes no difference to me as to whether you believe any of this or not, although it was one of the first things that I learned about them when Kookooloo came to live with me. Any way, try to take a few minutes before you approach your birds to let go of everything that is bothering you, it doesn't matter how big or small it is, just find that calm clear space inside you and breath it in for a minute or two before working with your Greys, especially with Dino. If while interacting with them you start to get frustrated, step back, take a deep breath, let the frustration go and try again. If you can't let the frustration go, then stop trying to do anything but talking to them. Tell them what is bothering you, tell them what type of life you really want to share with them and the things that you would like to be able to do with them.
Your belief in any of this is not a requirement, but try these things out for a week to ten days and see if you can notice any improvement in your interactions with this pair. And yes, I am quite aware of exactly how loony this probably sounds to you, but I have worked with troubled animals for close to 50 years, so humor me and give this an honest try, you may find no change or you may be surprised at what happens, you tell me.

[sgtpepper]

Hi Wolf, thanks for taking the time to write back:)
The fact is, I've known this ever since I got them, and I am always calm and I always speak gently with them. So that is off the question. Before starting the session I always sit near them and just talk for a few minutes and explain what we are going to do next.
And I never react when Dino bites, only when he bites hard I take my hand and then put it back somewhere near, for him to see that he doesn't solve anything by biting.

I know that with Dino the situation is more complex, but what about Zaura?

I am actually getting somewhat annoyed after we have our training, because I start analyzing what happened and the fact that it's still the same!

[liz]

Wolf is right. All of them are able to feel are emotions to an extent. That is why the people who are afraid of being bit get bit.

Maybe that is why I never get bit. I am more concerned with what the bird is feeling than about me.

[sgtpepper]

I was afraid at first, but now both me and my boyfriend are so used to it that we don't even think about it anymore. But still, he bites

[sgtpepper]

Sometimes everything goes great, and then all of a sudden he panics and bites for no apparent reason

[Wolf]

To reiterate on Zaura-- Would you trade your time to me for some stale bread or a handful of dirt? I know that this question is extreme, but the point is simply that Zaura does not think that it is a fair trade when you offer her things that she does not like as a bribe (treat) to do something for you. Give her the credit for being as intelligent as she is. To qualify as a treat it must be something that the birds likes well enough to place such a value as to be willing to perform some act for you in order to receive this treat. Obviously you and she have a different idea of what constitutes a treat. Just because you like a thing and therefore place a high enough value on it to trade your money, time or an action for it does not mean that she will. the treat is for her and not you therefore by nature the treat must be a thing that she likes.
You stated that when you offer her a treat that she does not like that she looks at it and then walks away. Isn't that what you would do? I know that it is what I would do. There is nothing difficult to understand about this and certainly you can relate to the concept that she will not perform for something that she does not like.
I am on a massive amount of morphine for pain and it helps some, if you were to be given the amount of this drug as I take just once you could undergo an operation and not even feel it and I consume this dosage several time each and every day. It allows me to function reasonably well for three hours, sometime for four hours a day if I am lucky. My pain is a constant thing that I am fully aware of both while awake and while I try to sleep. This pain fluctuates by the minute depending on how I move. The pain that Dino feels may very well be such that if he moves in a certain manner that it is like getting jabbed with a knife. It may increase with a change in his blood pressure , I know that mine often does. Try to be understanding with him, I know that it is hard for you as his bites are painful. But biting is not a normal behavior for a parrot and it only become a normal response when in captivity, it is a thing that we teach them that they must do in order to get our attention. He truly has no desire to bite you or anyone else for that matter. Screaming is also not a normal behavior for parrots it is another thing that we humans teach them to do. As I said once before ,I would love to have these two birds and be able to help them to get through their difficulties so that they can have a chance at a healthy and as happy of a life as possible. You despite having difficulties with the time and effort to help them through what others have done to them are doing a wonderful thing and I appreciate it and respect you for even attempting to accomplish this as it is both time consuming and difficult to do.

[sgtpepper]

The thing is that Zaura ONLY likes seed related treats. Once a day I make them a toy which is half a walnut wrapped in paper. Sometimes I offer them hemp seeds as a treat. Or small pieces of almond. Or small pieces of hazelnut. Those she will step up for. Sprouted seeds, small pieces of vegetables, fruit: never.
And I am limiting that amount to one hazelnut, one half of walnut and one almond per parrot daily.
I believe she is already eating poorly, as she eats only a little bit of gloop and chop in the morning (not vegetables, only the boiled, mashed ones in the gloop) and she eats all seeds at dinnertime (after reading more on pellets, I realized they are useless, so I switched on a high quality parakeet mix)
Dino, on the other hand, has adapted fairly quickly to the new diet. Of course, still a bit reluctant for the uncooked veggies but it's a big progress.
They also have milk thistle extract, dandelion root extract and B vitamin complex added to their water, for fatty liver. So I am trying to ease their liver and not offer them more than their already sick liver can handle.

So do you have any suggestions for healthy treats that she might like?

As far as Dino goes, I know it a looong way with him!
Hopefully the lights and diet change will help.
Besides his hormonal issues, I am also pretty sure that somebody did something to him these 3 years, because he is too scared of people, even for a parent raised bird. He still puffs up and bites his toenails when we go near the cage. And after a few seconds he does this noise, like, "oh, it's just you" and then comes near the bars for a kiss.
He somehow gives really cute kisses(raising only his upper beak), even when outside the cage, but can't seem to find his way around hands/

[Pajarita]

OK, first diet notes: hemp seeds are used to bring passerines into breeding condition so, please, stop them immediately. No need for B complex, if you want to help their liver give them just B6 but not every day, either, once a week is good enough. Third but not last, you have already changed their diet immensely so don't worry so much about it, it takes a looooong time to achieve a pretty good one so just keep on doing what you are doing without worrying so much. It will happen.

Now, training. You need to understand three things:
1. Training (learning from a human) is a completely unnatural activity for any parrot and much more so for those raised by their parents so the ONLY reason for them to do anything is to get something they want very much and, when you talk about well-fed birds, this doesn't work all the time. That's why trainers talk about food management - because the only way to make them perform consistently is for them to be hungry (something, needless to say, that I do NOT agree with at all) and the birds they work with are always hand-fed birds!

2. It's only when a parrot trust us 100% that they won't bite us and even that doesn't work 100% of the time unless you are on your guard all the time. You really have not had them for that long so I suggest you allow more time to go by.

3. Birds that have mates will never bond deeply with us because they only do when they are imprinted to humans (yours are not) and a human is the only source of company and affection. The truth is that we don't really 'earn' this devotion, we trick them into imprinting to us and then make ourselves the only recourse for their social needs so although it is love, it's not as if they chose us for it.

Why don't you just enjoy their company without asking them to do anything? It will serve you and them much better in the long run... at least, it's what works for me.

[sgtpepper]

From what I know hemp seeds have Omega 3 oils. We gave them quite rarely, and even then only a few, but I will read more on that.
It will take time to tame them, but it is definitely definitely not impossible. Parrots live a long life, things will gradually get better so we're not going to give up